For this week's blog posting, summarize one aspect aspect of your group chat from Tuesday. See the example student chat and summary paragraph below:
Step One: Group Chat on Tale of Two Cities:
Allison: but, the time was not come yet; and every time that wind blew over france shook the rags of the scarecrows in vein, for the birds fine of song and feather, took no worning. book 1, ch 5
Jenny: ok…what does that mean?
Caitlin: the scarecrows are the aristocracy
Lucy: once again the birds are dirty
Caitlin: i think
Jenny: wait a seec
Lucy: no,no,the wind is the scary mean people and the scarccrow are the porr people fighting the revolution
Allison: yeah lucy that’s what I was sayin
Lucy: and rthe poor are scarred away until the revolution comes
Jenny: I think that there were so many times the thwe revolution could have occurred that (wind in vien) that when it actually cam the rich had no idea it was coming
Step Two: Group Summary of Discussion
Although the barbaric human is often mentioned, we feel that the most important thematic issue within animal imagery is how the poor people are referred to as dogs and pigs. But social class differences are also illustrated symbolically by other images, such as the description of the ragged scarecrows (symbolizing the poor), while birds symbolize the upper class.
Note: if you were absent on Tuesday, and did not participate in the group chat, respond to one of the discussion questions passed out in class.
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61 comments:
I'm not sure if we are supposed to post the log and the summary, but I'll post the excerpt from the log later, if need be.
We discussed Heathcliff's acts of desecrating Catherine's grave in his desire to remain with her for eternity. We determined that these acts not only were weird, but also showed complete irreverence for the dead. However, perhaps more than either of these, his digging up the dead asserted the disturbing extent of his obsession with Catherine.
Are we supposed to show the actual conversation? Well i will just go for it by summarizing our talk about nature vs. the individual. It seemed that my group was split on thinking whether the natural roughness of Wuthering Heights had affected the outcome of Heathcliff or if his actions have characterized the area they live in. We were confused about whether passion or logic had more power and the more i thought about it i realized neither control the fate of heathcliff. he uses passion as his logic and eventually dies and ultimately wins and loses at the same time. i decided that nature has the true power over heathcliff and cathrine. they are both blinded by passions and logic and dont realize they are letting their natural environments choose their fates. Catherine is only interested in the warmness grange crossings and heathcliff is only prolonged into a rough wuthering environment of the heights.
( i deleted meaningless parts that made it way to long)
arie.mansolino: an equalbalance between passion and reason yields the most pleasing results
me: Passion without control can destroy all who are involved?
hbray90: yea i agree there has to be both...
spearsbrianna: <3 and reason make the strongest relationship
me: Hareton <3 Cathy but he is also very resaonable and caring
jessicamobbs: A passionate love can turn to ruin, but one based on reason can last.
hbray90: yea but it has to have some passion!
me: A mixof passion and reason create complete and true happiness
One theme that we came upon was a theme involving passion vs. reason. In the end a relationship must have a certain balance of passion and reason to thrive. Without passion there is no excitement, but without reason a relationship can be harmful. Hareton and Cathy's relationship is the only relationship that we see that works. They are playful and sometimes pick on each other, but they are not absurd or cruel about their feelings. In the end they prove that a balance of passion and reason are necessary for a truly happy and complete relationship.
malcamp09: (:
10:49 AM yes which leads to the next question
about hareton and cathy's pending marriage
i think we hit it before that cathy and hareton have what heathcliff and catherin were meant to have
kellyeoldham: yeah
kjberard2: they finally find a balance
gilmoregirlfrk: hareton and cathy seem to be happy after her stupid relationship w/ linton
me: i think their relationship represents what heath. could never achieve...
kellyeoldham: exactly
gilmoregirlfrk: true
malcamp09: the younger generation symbolizes what teh older generation was supposed to be
meganwhitten04: i also thought it was surprising in the ways that Cathy changed towards hareton
10:50 AM malcamp09: yea, she was a witch with a b
:p
gilmoregirlfrk: she gave him a chance while c1 didn't for heathcliff
me: haha i hated linton!! i'm so glad she switched her views
malcamp09: yes
kellyeoldham: yeah. she despised him at first and then falls in love with him
meganwhitten04: me too!
kjberard2: yea
meganwhitten04: i think it makes it a happier ending
malcamp09: so cathy realized that linton was a weakling, so she moved to the dumb brute hahahaha
kellyeoldham: yeah
kjberard2: i think it was the best thing that could have happened
meganwhitten04: me too
10:51 AM me: hareton is somewhat a foil to linton- like heath. and edgar
One aspect of our conversation was the contrast between the first generation and the second generation. More specifically, our group conversed about the similarities and differences between Heathcliff and Catherine and Hareton and Cathy. The prosperous connection Cathy shares with Hareton represents the relationship Heathcliff could never achieve with Catherine when she was alive. Hareton is like Heathcliff in many ways; however, Hareton is able to forgive and forget those that have caused him harm. In the same way, Cathy, while judgemental, is not as narrow-minded as her mother. Hareton is the "wealthy soil" (p.193 in my book), and his love for Cathy will emerge from the "weeds" and continue to flourish; unlike Heathcliff's defeated relationship to Catherine.
goalygirl91: catherine does too- showing that nature is greater
malcamp09: but why?
goalygirl91: she goes insane...
me: i just think that the way you are doesn't change based on outside relations
kjberard2: you are going to be your own person but you may act different in different surrounding
like Catherine
gilmoregirlfrk: yea
malcamp09: but in the end, hareton changes by nurture
goalygirl91: true- but it doesnt change who you really are
kjberard2: agreed
he still has thesense ofself
me: i think that hareton was the same person all along but was forced to act in different situations
kjberard2: we just idd not get o see his true colors before
One of our main topics that we discussed was the debate between nature & nurture. We all had different views on the subject, but I think we came to agree that nature truly is more important than nurture. We see this in Hareton. Although he does seem to change characteristics based on his position in life, it is his nature that is shown in the end. We never really see who Hareton really is until we see his complete transformation to the man he is with Cathy. This is the man he was all along, but he was forced to hide this side of himself due to circumstances.
me: ok so hareton looks like catherine.
kellyeoldham: ...
me: why is that important?
10:47 AM kjberard2: they are related arent they?
meganwhitten04: they are cousins
i think
goalygirl91: bc theyre cuzins- andtheir eyes are the same
kjberard2: ok yea that is what i thought
kellyeoldham: hareton is her nephew?
me: well, heathcliff keepshim around because hes a reminder
but i would think he wouldnt want a reminder of his dead lover
kjberard2: yea...so they were both reminders
gilmoregirlfrk: ya even though he was worthless because he was basically illiterate
me: yes kellye
kellyeoldham: okay
meganwhitten04: true, it is weird on Heathcliff's part
10:48 AM me: but that was heathcliffs fault he was illiterate
kjberard2: very wierd but he was trying to hang on to all he had left of her
meganwhitten04: yeah, true.. heathcliff wants all the power
goalygirl91: i think heath. uses hareton to get back at hindley by causing him all the despair he had to go through...
me: exactly
yup
kjberard2: yea
gilmoregirlfrk: yup=past is more prevelent than the present
kjberard2: agreed
meganwhitten04: agree
kellyeoldham: at least hareton tried to teach himself how to read in order to prove to cathy that he was something
me: fasho
goalygirl91: agree
After discussing Hareton's relation to Heathcliff (his nephew), he discussed why Heathcliff would keep him around. We figured that because Hareton was Hindley's son, Heathcliff kept him around to get back at Hindley for ruining his childhood. Through that, we came to the conclusion that the past is more prevelant than the future because the past (Hindley being mean to Heathcliff) drives Heathcliff's actions (forcing Hareton to work and remain illiterate).
One thing we discussed was Heathcliff's changed behavior at the end of the novel. The main idea we had was that he was going slightly crazy and that his happieness came from visiting Catherine, opening her grave like before or seeing her ghost, or possibly the idea that he'd be with her soon. We also thought that part of his happy demeanor may have developed because he gave up on his revenge, and became more focused on being with Catherine. In the end, we figured his story ends in love because he dies and is hopefully going to be with Catherine, who is the one person in the world he really loves.
The subject we talked about most was about the needed balance between passion and reason in a relationship. A love that is too passionate can be destructive (like Catherine and Heathcliff, but also a love completely based on reason can be destructive too (like Catherine and Edgar). We agreed that there must be both passion and reason in a healthy relationship, and we thought that Hareton and Catherine finally found this in the end.
My group began by talking about our mutual agreement that Heathcliff was a jerk. We thought he was selfish, cruel, and a little creepy for digging up Catherine's grave. We all liked the ending, including the death of Heathcliff, and felt that is how everything should be. We liked the arrangement of the graves of Catherine, Edgar, and Heathcliff with Catherine in the middle (like she was while she was living), and we also found it interesting that the book said her grave was covered in "heath." We decided that was symbolic of that even in death, Heathcliff was and is always with her. We disagreed a bit on if we actually liked the first Catherine or not. We discussed how different the novel would have been if told in Heathcliff's perspective. We decided that we might not have disliked Heathcliff as much, and we decided that Nelly was a biased narrator. We also thought that if the story had been told in his perspective that it would have been in stream of consciousness because of how torn he is between loving Catherine and not being able to be with her. We tried to decided what books, windows, eyes, ghosts, and, storms were symbolic of. We thought that books were symbolic mostly of Hareton's illiteracy problems and how he wishes to be literate. We had a little trouble figuring out the windows; however, we thought that maybe they were symbolic of Heathcliff's longing to be with Catherine and how he always seems to be an outsider. We thought the storms represented the rough times and that the ghosts represent the things of the past that haunt the characters in the present. Kate had a wonderful theme: The past is solid and cannot be changed, but the decisions that make it up influence what is decided in the future. Basically that was the end of our conversation, since my computer randomly logged me off.
I was absent on Tuesday, so I am going to discuss the sixth discussion question. I actually do believe that Catherine and Heathcliff walk the moors on rainy nights. Their love is so strong that even death cannot stop them from being together. And as for the peace of the dead, Catherine and Heathcliff never were exactly conventional. Hareton and Cathy walk to moors on moonlit nights because they are the second generation, the second chance. They were able to push past their former generation's mistakes and make their own happiness.
This is Ashley :)
We started off talking about the first question and, because of the technical difficulties in class, that's about it except for themes. The novel is definitely more interesting because Heathcliff is interesting and not so good. However, individuals must choose for themselves what kind of life they are comfortable with. To be noticed or to live quietly? To each their own. Although quiet, "uninteresting" people are not usually remembered by history, their main objective in life may not be to be remembered--that pursuit may not even cross their minds. Life is fleeting and people must live in a way that they won't regret it and will be comfortable with, according to their values and morals. That's not to say a morally decent person can't be exciting and vice versa. At the end, Hareton and Cathy are on the verge of getting married (which I love). I saw this as the only goodness from WH joining the only strength from the Grange, as if the two were consolidating the powers of the houses--although the strength from WH is usually corrupt, from the Grange it's more peaceful but still forceful; likewise, the Grange's goodness is usually too meek, but from WH it has more conviction behind it. One theme I threw out during the discussion was "All consuming love and passion can lead to destruction if unleashed without caution or reason," which applies well with Heathcliff and Catherine. Notice that Hareton and Cathy, unlike Heathcliff and Catherine, follow their love and passion in pursuit of the other's respect and admiration, whereas Heathcliff and Catherine just wanted to possess each other.
We discussed two topics in depth. First, whether Bronte says it is better to be interesting and not-so-nice or nice and not-so-interesting. The majority of the group, minus chachie, agreed that Bronte meant it was better to be more interesting. We said Edgar was the nice, uninteresting character, and Heathcliff was the interesting, jaded one. In the end, we think Heathcliff wins because Bronte hints at an ending in which Heathcliff and Catherine walk the mores together, forever. Edgar, however, knows he doesn't have Catherine's full love, and dies without trumping the connection she has with Heathcliff. Heathcliff: 1; Edgar: 0. Also, I think the story would have revolved more around Edgar, as opposed to Heathcliff, if Bronte wanted us to side with his case. Then we discussed passion versus reason; passion embodied in Heathcliff, and reason embodied in Edgar. This is because Heathcliff was the passionate option, and Edgar was the reasonable option. Though Edgar was the more practical decision, which Catherine chose, the ending once again alludes to the fact that passion is more powerful than reason. Reason, concerned with Earthly goods, wilted away as soon as Edgar died. However, Heathcliff and Catherine's ghosts being together for a possible eternity shows that passion is something beyond this world--something supernatural.
mtdonahoo: maybe he's possessed
me: i thinkso!!!!
haleylovesgreen: haha..i think heathcliff's love for catherine is justout ofcontrol
libperry: that demonstrates his morbid obsession and obviously unhealthy dispostition
me: okay i have a really good quotetoprove he's posessed
haleylovesgreen: at some points i evenwonder if he evenloves her
gocarogo
me: okayy
gary9soccer: yea but he goes through all the trouble of diggin up the grave and knockin out a side of the coffin so he can be beside her.....thats a whole new level of crazy
9:49 AM haleylovesgreen: hahahadefinitely
libperry: i would not like to date him. he seems like the crazy gmail chat stalker type
mtdonahoo: everyone thinks he's the devil so he's obviously possessed
me: "It's odd what a savage feeling I have to anything that seems afraid of me!Had I been born where laws are less strict and tastes less dainty I should treat myself to a slow vivisection of those two (Cathy and linton) as an evening's amusement
there\
that took forever
he sounds like a vampire for real
haleylovesgreen: what page is that on
gary9soccer: well it seems that he does take the life out of people he is around
mtdonahoo: or like someone who's possessed
me: pg.295 my book
We talked about how Heathcliff seems inhuman as he tries to get Cathy and Linton together. We couldn't believe he locked Cathy in the room with Linton until he died. No wonder she turns so bitter. Themes we came up with include "love can be a destructive or constructive force" and "Love can often blind reason".
As Matt/Ashley pointed out, our group did not get to do much discussion of the topics except for the first. We all agreed that it is better to be interesting and not so good than to be boring and well behanved. We also touched on whether or not the past is more important than the present. Most of us came to the conclusion that the past is most important because it dictates how a person acts and reacts to situations in the present. Heathcliff and Catherine's love began when they were younger and then as the years progressed, it became passionate and all consuming which led them to fight and hurt one another to have power. The past is what determines a person's present and future.
alex.bradshaw0: yea i guess he realizes that its not a good idea to just die right then
9:54 AM anadams91: it was only becasue he thought she would be gone fform her forever. but once he knows he wont be, he deciodes its ok to live
she wont be**
me: Passion wins for the moment, but does it win in the end? No.
anadams91: yeah it does
brandon.dahler: agreed
anadams91: he kinda has her forever
9:55 AM he goes crazy in the end becsuae he is trying to see her invisible ghost
alex.bradshaw0: i think that reson wins at that point, but eventually assion does
passion*
anadams91: do you guys get the catherines ghost thing??
he thinks she is with him
!!
alex.bradshaw0: yea
anadams91: that changes things
me: That he's going crazy over it? Yeah, that would be passion winning.
9:56 AM anadams91: exactly
alex.bradshaw0: ok maybe im wrong
anadams91: YOU ARE!!!
just kidding
brandon.dahler: rawr
anadams91: its ok
me: There are no wrong answers in English class.
---
Okies. So.
Basically, we think that Heathcliff seeing Catherine's ghost towards the end symbolizes the victory of passion over reason. He goes crazy over his love, when simple reason could have told him that she was gone and wouldn't be coming back. Hence the oh-so-romantic "I want to be buried next to a woman I wasn't married to" bit. Yes, Catherine is with him forever -- in his head. Hence the passion winning over reason.
malcamp09: what about nurture and natur?
which one?
meganwhitten04: nature is more important
goalygirl91: innate behavior cant easily be changed to fit what surroundings tell us to do
malcamp09: i agree
kellyeoldham: nature
me: yea
gilmoregirlfrk: agree
malcamp09: no nurturekellye
10:55 AM kellyeoldham: nope
goalygirl91: so next question...
meganwhitten04: nurture does play somewhat of a role but nature over rules
malcamp09: how?
kellyeoldham: thank you
gilmoregirlfrk: hareton shows nature is more important
malcamp09: i see nurture as more important
me: i agree
gilmoregirlfrk: nope
kellyeoldham: mallory you are just WRONG!
meganwhitten04: WRONG
malcamp09: shut it!
haha
gilmoregirlfrk: and Kristina
goalygirl91: catherine does too- showing that nature is greater
malcamp09: but why?
10:56 AM goalygirl91: she goes insane...
me: i was talking about about what you said not mal
meganwhitten04: i just think that the way you are doesn't change based on outside rekations
gilmoregirlfrk: o
goalygirl91: basically
meganwhitten04: relations8
relation*
me: you are going to be your own person but you may act different in different surrounding
like Catherine
gilmoregirlfrk: yea
malcamp09: but in the end, hareton changes by turenur
10:57 AM nurture
*
goalygirl91: true- but it doesnt change who you really are
me: agreed
he still has thesense ofself
meganwhitten04: i think that hareton was the same person all along but was forced to act in different situations
malcamp09: maybe
me: agreed
goalygirl91: yup
kellyeoldham@gmail.com has left
me: we just idd not get o see his true colors before
I think that nature is more prevalent than nurture because Hareton has always been the same character he was just not able to show his true colors like i stated in the chat. Catherine is another example because she is always the wild outspoken girl but is suppressed by society when at the grange. At Wuthering Heights she is just herself and is not tamed.
One of the main things that my group discussed was Wuthering Heights versus Threshcross Grange. Two of us vavored TG and the other liked WH better. Th good things that we dicusses about TG were basically its history, comfort, and style compared to WH. We liked it more because it just seemed to be classier and more homey. The other person in our group appreciated WH more fore its character, and its major ties to nature. She really liked the rawness of WH as compared to the more showy and almost fake style of TG. In the end of this part of the dicussion it was still 2 to 1 for TG but both sides learned to at least appriciate both houses.
Caveat: The chat may be difficult to read.
Do our interesting characters "win" in the end?
mbradshaw13: if its not interesting, then why would you continue reading it?
me: Interesting. I would rather go out into the world, and maybe do some bad/wrong things than sit at home al day and be sheltered
mbradshaw13: The interesting characters actually lose
Justin: to ms. charbonnet, no they lose... Heathcliff for example
andrew.dawson90: who do you consider interesting?
lcharbonnet: but he dies smiling
jaredwaynef: Heathcliff in this case Andy
mbradshaw13: good point
me: Define win. Heathcliff overcame all his childhood problems to become rich, but didnt get Cathy. Hareton, whom I found interesting, ended up w/ Cathy. He won.
lcharbonnet: Are Hareton and C2 interesting/not good or good/not interesting? Okay! So what does the pending marriage represent then?
andrew.dawson90: I think the scene at the end where he dies when it is raining in on him shows that he wins
The discussion was on whther or not the interesting characters "win" in the end. It is difficult to tell, as one does not really know what the "win" is within the story. Heathcliff won in that he became rich, but he lost the fight for Catherine. Hareton/Cathy won in that they will get married. But, to win, they both had to overcome the "sins of the fathers" to achieve this victory. This is a basic summary of the discussion. We all had different opinions and it was difficult to maintain a chat because3 out of our 6 group members had a dead computer.
The topic discussed most in our group was the themes. We thought one of the most dominate themes is the conflict of passion and reason in the novel. As we all saw in the end, Heathcliff's uncontrolled passion, and Catherine's reason both turned out to be unsuccesful. Our group agreed that in order to achieve true happiness and peace, one must achieve a healthy balance of passion and reason. We see the hope of this healthy balance in Hareton and Catherine's relationship at the close of the novel.
My group discussed if passion or reason won in the end. We pretty much agreed that reason won because all of the passionate people die. Heathcliff and Catherine who represent passion in the novel are dead at the end, so all that is left is reason. Also, since Wuthering Heights represents raw passion and emotions, it is abandoned at the end. Hareton and Cathy go to the Grange which represents reason. Passion is figuratively left to ruin. Hareton is passionate, but Cathy brings reason to him through education. It seems to me that reason makes people a lot happier than passion in the novel.
The main focus of our discussion, computer willing and able, was the scene where Heathcliff goes to Catherine's grave. In this scene, Heathcliff goes to the grave and digs up Catherine to "see her face" again. At first, we responded with a laugh relating it to necrophilia. After, though, we realized the creepiness that the scene revealed. His love for Catherine has completely driven him over the edge in madness, causing him to dig up the corpse. This discovery led to one of our themes that we actually talked about when we were putting up the computers. The theme was (in poor memory): Love can equally create a new life (as in a baby, or emotional rebirth), just as much as it can destroy those who are overtaken in its passion.
We got to talk about the first three questions and the themes. We sort of came to the agreement that it is better to be interesting and not so good than is it to be good and not so interesting. We said it is better to have a little bit of excitement in your life than to just be good all the time, because it makes things interesting. Then we discussed why Heathcliff opened Catherine's casket. We think he needed to see her face again, and also he needed to prove to himself that she is still in the grave and it is just his mind that is haunting him. He knows he is dead, but he still doesn't want to believe it after 18 years. Then we discussed the significance of Cathy and Hareton resembling each other. Leah said, "if hareton and cathy resemble each other, it foils the relationship of heathcliff and catherine, which could foreshadow the end of hareton and cathy's relationship.", and I thought that was a really good point. Finally, we talked about themes. We came up with: "When passion overcomes reason, people overlook the faults of the ones they think they love." "When passion overcomes reason, judgment is clouded, and life ultimately results in early death." and "When passion clouds reason, every generation after is affected in a negative way."
I just want to say that I really liked using a chat room to talk, I thought it was a lot of fun!!
I think we all decided right off the bat that it's way better to be interesting and not so good than vice-versa and Bronte agrees through the way that she depicts Catherine and Heathcliff's eternal love. After discussing that for the majority of class we moved onto number 2 saying that he opens Catherine's casket out of passion and not reason, which seems to be how he typically acts around her. As a theme, we brought up passion and reason.. basically saying that conflicting passion and reason can result in mental and physical deterioration.
Haerton and Cathy both resemble Catherine in that they have her eyes. This is why Heathcliff hates them, yet, cannot stay angry at either. When he looks at them he sees Catherine and that image lessens his anger. This resemblence they have to Catherine, in my opinion, is what makes the relationship work. Everyone marries someone completely opposite of themselves. The two share this feature as well as many other qualities. While Cathy has her mothers passion, Haerton has her reasoning....the two combined=happy =]
our group agreed on the fact that past is more effective than the future. We discussed nature and nurture and most of us agreed that nature is more important than nurture because you can not change an individual they stay the same no matter what the environment is. we also discussed the relationships between Hareton and Cathy and Heathcliff and Catherine. Hareton and Cathy's relationship represented Heathcliff and Catherine's relationship and what they could not have.Hareton and Cathy fell in love and get to be together, unlike Heathcliff and Catherine who could not for they were mad.
Our group mainly talked about Heathcliff's infatuation with Catherine and how it ultimately killed him. One point we made was that he lost his sanity after Catherine died, as he proves when he digs her up again. Also, Catherine's grave was in the middle because that's where she ultimately was in life: between Heathcliff and Edgar. Also, with Heathcliff being buried next to her, their bodies would eventually mingle when decomposed in the earth. Through his crazy actions involving Catherine, Heathcliff is driven insane with passion for her.
Our group really focused on the idea of either past or present is more influential in life. In general, we said that the past held the greastest standing. After all, doesn't what happens to you in the past shape who you will become in the future? Also, even though the present is present right now, tomorrow it will be the past. All in all, the past dominates.
seanboers: Well, I agree with what Brandon verbalized; Heathcliff is interesting, dark and mysterious. But where does that get him? His intended is dead, etc. etc. etc., people think he's a butthole.
brandon.dahler: a wealthy butthole
me: hes only like that becasue he lost the love of his life
at least use a cool name, butthole is very lame
9:42 AM sean explain your resaoning
alex.bradshaw0: yea but he seems to get more out of life than Edgar
seanboers: OK. He seems more fulfilled. But in life, not necessarily in the book, I think the guy that is good at something will go further.
me: yeah, if youre not intersting, even if youre good, what do you get out of life? only heartach without love at least heathcliff had one
9:43 AM seanboers: Yes, Edgar is a pathetic loser. Yes, Heathcliff gets revenge and some nice houses. But is that worth being bitter and hating his life?
alex.bradshaw0: of course
me: where did edgar go? dead. nowhere with no one to love him but his daughter who has to anyway
seanboers: Materialist.
alex.bradshaw0: this is no name calling week
brandon.dahler: i think it is agreeable that everyone there hates their life for one reason or another
me: heathcliff is just a messed up personwhod be miserab;e regardless
alex.bradshaw0: i agree
we basically think that being interesting is better than being good. being good doesnt really let you get any life experiences that make life worthwhile. heathcliff is angry and depressed but at least he had catherins love. edgar is good but what does he get in life? no one to love him and no memorabe experiences. though we qualified some, that is what most of us thought.
Our group's main focus was the first topic of whether its better to be interesting and not-so-nice or vice-versa, which eeventually flowed into a "who won" at the end of the novel. We had arguements on both sides, some saying Heathcliff won because his ghost is seen walking around the moors with another apparition, possibly for eternity with Catherine, and that he and Catherine are buried together. Others said that Heathcliff didn't win because he ultimately dies and are unsure of the outcome for the afterlife, as well as Heathcliff's eighteen-year-suffering from Catherine haunting him causes a sense of "losing".
Our group spent the majority of our time discussing themes we coveredt topics such as love vs hate, passion vs reason, nature vs artificial and past vs present. We basically agreed that nature conquers the artificial, passion and reason must be held in balance to achieve any sort of happiness, the past has a profound effect over the present, and hate can be born can from love.
My group for the most part agreed that Heathcliff is a bit crazy becuase the night of Catherines funeral he goes and pens her grave. 2/3 of us agreed that he is just crazy and should not have done it but the others felt that heathcliff needed to see her face one more time and he, Heathcliff just like catherine to be around. but us who thought he was just crazy thought but she is dead, he can have the memory of her, but there is nothing for him to do now that she is dead and opening thew casket only makes things worse by him weanting her to be alive and not a ghost even more
xben90: In the end, nature always gets its way
1:30 PM can't control nature... you CAN control what's artificial though
me: true
hmm,
1:31 PM dragonplayer90: yeah....nature definitly has the edge over the artificial b/c nature will always be there no matter what things that r artificial get in its way
me: also, artificial means in man-made
lcharbonnet: good thinking!! keep going with these
xben90: The basis of everything else comes from nature in my opinion
me: so that means it will always has its own flaws and weaknesses as opposed to nature
xben90: not just tangible things but feelings also,like love, hate,sadness, etc...
1:32 PM dragonplayer90: but on the other hand machines and things of that nature are mankinds way of attempting to control nature
xben90: true.
dragonplayer90: but can nature be controlled?
me: but nature cant ever fully be controlled
or
xben90: the way i was thinking of it was that artificial things come from nature
me: thats what i think
xben90: so nature is like the inspiration
1:33 PM artificial stuff = the product
yes/no? lol
dragonplayer90: yeah that makes sense cause everything artificially made is in response to nature
me: you mean, nature is an inspires us to make artificial things?
1:34 PM err nature inspires*
Our group engaged in a discussion of theme. One of the main topics we talked about was nature vs. artificial. We said how artificial means man-made, thus having its own flaws and weaknesses. On the other hand, nature is pure and flawless. Thus, we drew this theme statement: Nature cannot be overcome by humanly/artificial means.
me: my space bar's messed up
chris.m.choe: nature overcomes man-made things in the end
but
1:35 PM the man-made things are derived from nature
ironic, no?
me: Yes.
Well back to the theme part,nature imo would dominate because I thought of itas
1:36 PM Catherine choosing artificial overnature, therefore destroying herself
for example
she chose the comforts,the money, the"artificial"life
1:37 PM on the other hand, Heathcliff would resemble more of nature
dragonplayer90: yeah just like the differences between the two houses
chris.m.choe: yeah, edgar=reason and arificiality
heathcliff=passion and nature
dragonplayer90: the grange being artificial and wuthering heights being nature
1:38 PM me: Yep.so i guess we all agreeonnaturethen
dragonplayer90: yeah but now we need it to sound all themeatical
1:39 PM chris.m.choe: well, definitely nature overcomes the artificial
but
we need to take a fresh spin on it
1:40 PM me: Emotions derived from nature are unpredictable and unavoidable; those who fail to follow these emotions eventually break down
In our group we decided that it is much better to be interesting than to be not so nice. we kept coming back to this point within our discussion trying to decide that if in the end being interesting really is best. We concluded that heathcliff was interesting and edgar was nice. In the end of the novel we think that heathcliff fdoes "win" catherine because he is buried with her and their bodies and souls are now together forever. the interesting character won even in death by "one upping," (as someone in our group put it) edgar.
arie.mansolino: an equalbalance between passion and reason yields the most pleasing results
me: Passion without control can destroy all who are involved?
hbray90: yea i agree there has to be both...
spearsbrianna: <3 and reason make the strongest relationship
me: Hareton <3 Cathy but he is also very resaonable and caring
jessicamobbs: A passionate love can turn to ruin, but one based on reason can last.
hbray90: yea but it has to have some passion!
me: A mixof passion and reason create complete and true happines
We spent alot of time talking about passion vs. reason and we got a theme with general idea that there needs to be a compromise between the two contradictories or destruction will occur. We also decided that Hareton and Cathy will be very happy together and we attribute that to the meshing of the passion and reason. We weren't really sure why hareton and Cathy had the same eyes but we obviously found out in class today. We didn't really come to a conclusion of interesting vs. good.
One thing that we discussed was why does Heathcliff open Catherine's grave a second time? We pretty much agreed that he had gone crazy. We did address that he still loved her, even though she had been long dead. It is as if he does not want to believe that she is really gone, still. He wanted to make sure if the visions that he had been having of her ghost were real.
My group's discussion was sort of scattere because of technological difficulties. We did manage to discuss Heathcliff's acts after Edgar's funeral. We were all kind of creeped out by the distance he took their love even after death. This was about the final straw for me as far as respect for Heathcliff. We then discussed the comparison of good vs. interesting and it was a group decision that it was better to be interesting that good. So, yeah.
One interesting thing our group discussed was the extremity of the characters' personalities. Heathcliff, of course, is the Byronic hero constantly veiled in mystery. Catherine is the untamed spirit that is a joy to watch develop. Edgar is the pansy. Once we had the personalities straight, we discussed whether it is better to be interesting or "good." We noticed that, in some cases, the good die early, Edgar, while the interesting, Heathcliff, are left to fizzle out into dullness. Whether that's consistent, we weren't sure, but it made an interesting point. Then the server cut out, and when it resumed we discussed the grave scene. In the end, we decided, Heathcliff was the victor by one-upping Edgar by choosing to be buried so that he and Catherine may decompose together.
We talked alot about how Hareton and Cathy are fulfilling what the first generation didn't get to achieve because of Catherine. Due to her stubbornness and the social expectations she married Edgar, but now when they are dead, Hareton and Cathy achieve tue love. This shows that the past has a significant influence in the present and without the past conflicts, this novel wouldn't exist, or wouldn't be significant.
I was absent Tuesday so here is my response to one of the discussion questions.
#1. Is it better to be interesting and not so good or to be good and not so interesting?
I think it is better to be interesting and not so good. I know some people may not agree but here is my reasoning. When you are interesting alot more seems to happen and it may not always go your way but at least its you would'nt be living a dull life. Yes, being not so good is a bad thing but always being a goody good will hardly get you anywhere in life that has an interesting path. We see Heathcliff and Carherine's true love as being interesting because ithe is seen to be not so good because of the effects it causes on their lives. Yes, neither of them ended up together but it kept the novel very interesting.
My group started a bit slow but when we finally got moving, we hit some really good points. We focused mainly on the question that dealt with the similarities in the eyes and themes.
caseymclaine: ok, what resemblence does hareton have with catherne?
arie.mansolino: theres a wuote in the ending chaptersthats like cathy and hearton have catherines eyes ironically they are the only two people who have a healthy relationship
hbray90: because when heathcliff sees catherine in hareton, it softens his temper toward him too
msmstrick1: but they used to fight like all the time?
jessicamobbs: i think they should get married cause he is nce and she is nicwe... they are both good people..not so interesting though.
The connections between Hareton, and both Catherines ended up driving Heathcliff over the edge. He was already in a fragile state of mind but seeing Catherine again, even if its just her eyes, has the power to kill him. His initial shock turns to dispair and his ultimate demise. Our main themes focused on the battles between passion and reason. Two of the strongest were: 1. A relationship is like a balncing act, one must juggle love, resaon, and passion in order t keep all scales balanced and 2. Passion without control can destroy a reasonable person.
Our group discussed the passion vs. reason idea that is present within Wuthering Heights. At first we were leaning towards reason as the more powerful force because the more passionate characters end up living a stressful and torn life (i.e Catherine and Heathcliff). Another reason we were thinking reason was the decision of Cathy and Hareton to live at The Grange which we felt represented reason because of the more proper and logical characters that resided there. Eventually we decided that both were necessary and that "versus" probably is not the correct term for the relationship. Passion has to work together with reason to provide harmony to relationships and instill the ability of creating a long term connection.
The main focus of our discussion was on the fact that Heathcliff dug up Catherine's grave. One reason he does it it just pure obsession with Catherine-he still wants to be with her even though she is cold and decaying. While living a life of separation from his love, he believes that death is the only force that will be able to unite them. He digs up and splits her coffin so that when he is buried, his decaying corpse will merge with hers. What a freak! We also discussed the powers of love and hate in relation to the past and present. Overall, passion and the past seem to be the more powerful forces. Both seem to swallow anything or anyone up and dictate what is to happen in the future. As we have discussed in class, passion has the power to create and destroy life.
One thing we discussed was how Hareton reminded Heatchliff of Catherine. It ironic that the boy he raised to be a servant reminded him so much or his lover. We thought that Hareton and Young Cathy's relationship reminded Heathcliff of what he and Catherine had (and should have always had). It hits a soft spot of Heathcliff to see them together and happy even after he tried so much to destroy both their lives. It hurts him because he sees something that he and Catherine never actually had - a happily ever after love relationship.
lcharbonnet: what does this merger represent?
granthankinson: merger of good and evil?
cameronpfonseca: well they kinda always went together so i think a balance like grant said
mtdonahoo: the good fromthe heights plus the strength fromthe grange end up together like the second generation is merging the aspects absent fromthe first generation
lcharbonnet: okay! so has the signif. of the Grange changed? or of WH? at the end of the novel?
cameronpfonseca: yeah but deep down both the houses are pretty much the same... i mean their in the same spectrum
granthankinson: well mayber this gap of differences betwen wh and the grange is closing
me: yea i agree with ashley! it's like the best qualities of the two come togethr and we get a happy ending
mtdonahoo: consolidating and moving away fromthe destructive heights
granthankinson: yea that sounds like a good fit
Basically we talked about how Catherine and Hareton's coming together is like a solution to the troubles of the past. Together they represent the best qualities of their parents and bring together characteristics of Wuthering Heights and Thrushcross Grange. They bring together the passion of Wuthering Heights minus the intensity and the compassion of Thrushcross Grange minus the weakness and snootiness.
My group pretty much decided that passion eventually wins over reason. He tries to live and get revenge upon the people he hates. Heathcliff lets reason win until the end of his life, when he finally decides to kill himself so he can follow his passion to be with Catherine in death.
Our group discussed Heathcliff's behavior before his death. We guessed that he was probably visiting Catherine's grave every night or searching for her out in the moors. Before he dies, he's finally happy because he gets to join Catherine in death. So, in a weird way, Heathcliff has a happy ending, and he dies loving rather than hating.
So...even though our group had quite the difficlut time getting into our group chat, we actually did get some good discussion done. We talked about the first and second question, then moved onto themes. Most of us agreeded that it is better to be interesting than good. The only theme topic we discussed was passion vs. reason.
Our best theme we can up with was, When passion overcomes reason, people overlook the faults of the ones they love.
First most of us decided that we think it's better to be a little bit interesting than to be good in real life. Then we all discussed how completely psycho Heathcliff is. We couldn't believe that he uncovered Catherine's grave and had a side of her casket come off.
Then we moved on to themes. We talked about passion vs. reason and how passion can cloud your reason.
Our group talked a lot about the meaning of Heathcliff's death, and why he acted so strange before his death. We came to the conclusion that in the end of the story Heathcliff no longer derives any enjoyment from taking revenge, and decides the only thing that will make him happy is to be reunited with Catheren. His excitement may come from the knowledge that he will join her soon in death. We also came to the conclusion that Heathcliff was sneaking off to Catherines grave during the night. In the end, we said that love wins out, for Heathcliff joins Catherine and his death allows Cathy and Hareton to carry on their lives.
Most of my group thought that reason won out in the end because the most passionate characters die and Cathy and Hareton decide to move to the Grange. I thoughts that passion won out at the end too, because even though what they were saying was true, Cathy and Hareton's relationship is a lot like Heathcliff and Catherine's in some ways: a forbidden love. It was only possible because Linton, the Edgar type figure in the second generation, dies so Hareton and Cathy are able to combine the best from their reasonable sides and passionate sides. There is enough passion to drive their love, but there is still reason to keep it in check and prevent its destructive powers. They are a mix of the two extremes that create a harmony. They show that the second generation is progessing by having both characteristics and moving to the Grange, back to society. The estate will become the best of both, and the relationship seems that it will work out in the end because of its delicate balance.
*mtdonahoo: how is he (Hareton) like catherine?
*gary9soccer: hareton marries cathy rite?
*libperry: well i think Catherine and heathclff could never be together and be happy, "I am heathcliff"
*caroy91: yeah
*me: yea
*libperry: maybe that's cuz their too similar
*me: and i think that heathcliff wasn't so much mad at cathy for leaving him.. he was mad at her for killing HERSELF
..so maybe that's why he's harsh towards hareton.. well one reason anyway
*mtdonahoo: she didnt kill herself
*me: well literally she didn't
*gary9soccer: she did with her decision
*caroy91: no i think heathcliff killed cathy with his obsession
*me: but he thinks she did when she chose edgar, right gerrit!
~oops! geritt!
ahh my life
that too caro
We discussed Heathcliff's true feelings towards all of the main characters throughout the book, and we also discussed his unhealthy relationship with Catherine. We wondered if Catherine's and Heathcliff's relationship would have lasted had it been set even in ideal conditions. They both seem too moody to be able to please the other at the same time. They do not possess the reason that's necessary to undergo a relationship. :-p
We mostly talked about themes such as: nature vs. nuture, past vs. present, and reason vs. passion. All of us agreed that it is the past is more influential. Plus it is the most crucial aspect that controls characters and is the motive behind all of their actions. That was the gist of our conversation along with a feud between Jake and I :), though because I am a woman I am right!
Our group discussed passion versus reason. I argued that reason won out because of Hareton, and gave examples as to why he was a logical, if not the most reasonable character in the novel. His drive to become more educated to avoid Cathy and Linton's torment and also his ability to move past Cathy's dislike for him establish him as the most sane and resilient character in the novel. When faced with a poor childhood, he does not end up like Heathcliff, but goes onto better himself and win Cathy. Therefor as few if any of the passionate characters end up happy, it is evident that reason is better than passion.
In our group, we discussed the aspects of passion and reason within the novel and tried to figure out the significance of Catherine and Heathcliff's deaths--both resulting from their own starvations. We decided that neither extremes of either passion or reason ultimately won in the novel; rather, the two characters which represented the mixtures (Harenton and Cathy) were the ones who lived "happily ever after."
mtdonahoo: maybe he's possessed
me: i thinkso!!!!
haleylovesgreen: haha..i think heathcliff's love for catherine is justout ofcontrol
libperry: that demonstrates his morbid obsession and obviously unhealthy dispostition
me: okay i have a really good quotetoprove he's posessed
haleylovesgreen: at some points i evenwonder if he evenloves her
gocarogo
me: okayy
gary9soccer: yea but he goes through all the trouble of diggin up the grave and knockin out a side of the coffin so he can be beside her.....thats a whole new level of crazy
9:49 AM haleylovesgreen: hahahadefinitely
libperry: i would not like to date him. he seems like the crazy gmail chat stalker type
mtdonahoo: everyone thinks he's the devil so he's obviously possessed
me: "It's odd what a savage feeling I have to anything that seems afraid of me!Had I been born where laws are less strict and tastes less dainty I should treat myself to a slow vivisection of those two (Cathy and linton) as an evening's amusement
there\
that took forever
he sounds like a vampire for real
haleylovesgreen: what page is that on
gary9soccer: well it seems that he does take the life out of people he is around
mtdonahoo: or like someone who's possessed
Honestly, with all our technical difficulties, it was tough to stay on subject in our chat. However we did manage to get some good themes for the essay Monday. We discussed how Heathcliff and Catherine's relationship is almost a lack thereof. They are consistently struggling between satisfying there own desires and their desire to be with each other.
We discussed how Heathcliff trying to manipulate everybody was contrary to the type of relationships he wants, and how those actions are what drives the novel.
gary9soccer: why does heathcliff do all that crazy diggin up people and junt?
caroy91@gmail.com has joined
caroy91: hey
am i back?
me: cuz he'scrazy
gary9soccer: yes
to both ppl
9:48 AM me: maybe he's possessed
caroy91: i thinkso!!!!
haleylovesgreen: haha..i think heathcliff's love for catherine is justout ofcontrol
libperry: that demonstrates his morbid obsession and obviously unhealthy dispostition
caroy91: okay i have a really good quotetoprove he's posessed
haleylovesgreen: at some points i evenwonder if he evenloves her
gocarogo
caroy91: okayy
gary9soccer: yea but he goes through all the trouble of diggin up the grave and knockin out a side of the coffin so he can be beside her.....thats a whole new level of crazy
9:49 AM haleylovesgreen: hahahadefinitely
libperry: i would not like to date him. he seems like the crazy gmail chat stalker type
me: everyone thinks he's the devil so he's obviously possessed
We talked about how heathcliff is obviously possessed. Really we talked about why heathcliff does all that crazy stuff that he does, like digging up catherine and knocking the sides of their coffins out. He obviously is "madly" in love with her and he can't be with her which drives him to do crazy stuff.
Shortly after we got started, we began to discuss the ideas of passion versus reason. Though a lot of it was clear cut and obvious comparisons like Heathcliff and Edgar, we also stumbled across a two that were a little more difficult. We spent quite a bit of time debating where exactly Hareton and Linton fit in to categories. At first thought, it seemed that by their upbringing and lifestyle, Hareton would be the symbol of passion and Linton the symbol of reason. However, after looking more closely, we began to realize that Linton was actually a very passionate and emotional character while Hareton showed little emotion or acted out how he felt. Though, I would not go as far to say that they are extremes like Heatcliff and Edgar.
After we finally figured out to bring everyone into one chat thing, we didn't have too much time left. We discussed the end of the book, and focused on themes. We couldn't really determine if it was nature/nurture. We all agreed though that Heathcliff and Catherine were inevitably together in death.
So in our blog we really talked about reason vs. passion/society vs. nature. We decided that neither pure passion or pure reason could win. Instead we thought that there had to be a balance, and that that balance was sort of achieved in Hareton and Little Catherine, whereas Big catherine and Heathcliff were destroyed by their own passions (bc there was no middle ground to them.)
One of the big things we talked about in my group was the relationship between the first-generation and second-generation. We made many comparisons between Heathliff's relationship with Catherine and Hareton's relationship with Cathy. Both are under the same type of situations where the male has been deprived of a good, nurturing environment and the female is of a more sophisticated nutured background.
Sorry this post is so late. I was only at school for one day and forgot about the blog. :(
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